Dealing with Difficult Homeowners

(00:01) Speaker: It's time for AMG's 2023 Community Leaders Series Podcast Edition. Over the last three decades, AMG has worked to make the role of community leaders more effective and less of a headache. Seminar topics are a response to what our Executive Board members have requested.

(00:18) Paul K. Mengert: What we find is we have 2 or 3% of the people that are generating maybe 50% of all the complaints.

(00:26) Speaker: And now here's your host and CEO of AMG, Paul K. Mengert.

(00:32) Paul K. Mengert: Welcome, everyone. This is the AMG Community Leaders Series 2023 Podcast Edition. Our topic for this episode is dealing with difficult homeowners, and I'm pleased to have a leading authority on group dynamics and leadership and a good friend, Dr. Lori Baker-Schena, as our special guest today. Welcome, Lori.

(00:56) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Great to be here, Paul.

(00:58) Paul K. Mengert: So, for those of you who don't know Lori, she often is sometimes known by a nickname Dr. BS. Of course, she's affectionately known. Lori launched her marketing and communications company more than 30 years ago, although she's barely that old. She taught for 25 years as a tenured University professor in journalism and public relations at California State Northridge and now works as a leadership consultant and professional speaker in the community association and other industries. Lori, it's really great to have you here. I want to dive right into this important topic. Talk to us about the steps of dealing with difficult homeowners.

(01:39) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Well, I'll tell you, one of the challenges we face in our industry is having to deal with homeowners who are not very happy, or they have some issues with things. And I want everyone to hear, first of all, that we shouldn't be surprised that we get this, because our homes are kind of our last bastion of privacy and, you know, where we really are, the kings of our and queens of our castle. So, we, first of all, have to realize that people get a little hyper excited about any issue dealing with their homes because it is their homes. So, we need to really keep that in perspective. And also, I want to stress that one of the ways to stop or kind of lessen any kind of anger that comes at you from homeowners is education. So, letting them know how and why you have a homeowner’s association, what it's all about, the purpose of it, the importance of it, the quality it brings to the community. Because a lot of people are angry because they don't understand the rules. They don't know why the rules are there. So, education is a key component in dealing with difficult people. So, Paul, there are some things that a couple of steps that I'd like to tell people and they are dealing with a homeowner who comes at them and who's very angry. First of all, you must stay calm and don't ever respond with anger because that just accelerates the problem. So, you really need to keep your cool, and that's crucial. The second thing you need to do is you have to listen very closely to what they're saying because sometimes they have a problem, but it's hiding even a bigger problem. So, you want to be a good listener and understand what they're saying and also never personalize these outbursts because they're upset. They're not upset at you, Jane Jones. They're upset at you because you represent the board, or you represent someone in authority. So, these three things really need to be in your head when you are approached by someone who has complaints or is difficult.

(03:41) Paul K. Mengert: Lori, I think this is just great guidance and over the years, many times I've dealt with an upset homeowner. I don't even want to call it difficult. I just say upset. And after letting them explain what has happened, sometimes they end up by saying, I really don't want you to do anything. I just wanted you to hear this and know about it. And had I interrupted them when they were trying to tell me about it, it might have never gotten to the point that they felt satisfied. What do you do when someone approaches you as a manager or community leader and they're just angry but not really explaining why they're angry? What are some of the questions that you can ask that helps you as the leader or manager understand why they are upset?

(04:36) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Well, the first thing you want to do is ask them what's going on. And I ask people right off the top to be succinct because you don't want people to go on and on because that is distracting. And also, we don't have that kind of time. But ask them, you know, in a nutshell, can you tell me what's going on with your situation? And then you want to slip in some kind of educational answer that helps to explain it. So, you're calm. And I think one of the first things you want to say, Paul, is I want to come up with a solution that's successful for all of us. I want you to really know, I'm here for you. So, you let them know that you're on their side and that you want to come up with something that makes sense to the whole community and put that in perspective. Does that make sense to you, Paul?

(05:26) Paul K. Mengert: It does, but I want to really emphasize to our listeners, avoid finding solutions or even proposing solutions before you're sure you really understand the whole problem.

(05:38) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Exactly.

(05:39) Paul K. Mengert: Because we have a tendency in human nature that we hear a problem, and we propose a solution. And often what I have found is that we only tend to get about 10% of the problem initially. And until we ask probing questions and consider a lot of alternatives, we really don't have the full scope of the problem. So, I would really suggest to folks to ask a series of questions and give it a series of thoughts before you propose back a solution. Many times, even if I feel like I know the solution, I have found it helpful to say, thank you for explaining this to me. Would it be okay if I get back to you tomorrow or Monday? Whatever an appropriate period of time is so that a person doesn't just feel maybe unheard. They want to feel like you're looking into their problem, that you're researching it. And listen, it's not just a matter of them feeling that way. It really needs to be done. We need to make sure we understand the scope of the problem. I also encourage people to ask a follow up question a lot of times. It’s always okay to ask questions. What I think is the key question to ask is what would you like to see done? If you were me, what would you do? And a lot of times things you may get proposed back you can't do. It's better, rather than saying, no, we can't do that because of X, Y, and Z, better to hold that and say, let me look into this. And I would rather go back to a homeowner and say, you know, I know you wanted X, but I called the association's lawyer and asked if we could do that because you proposed it and it sounded like a reasonable idea to me. But I asked the attorney, could we do that? And the attorney came back and said, it's against state law or it's against our governing documents. You may have already known that or suspected that, but I would say it's better to become an advocate of the I don't even want to say difficult person. You're become an advocate of the person you're talking with. And rather than telling them the reasons that your reason and very most of the cases we didn't write the statute or the governing documents. And if we're unless we're a lawyer, we're not supposed to be interpreting the law. So, it really does make sense to go to the attorney or whoever the person is, get that information and put yourself in the role of being an advocate instead of being a disciplinarian. So, avoid saying things like, you can't do that because I said so, which is fairly obvious. Don't put yourself in a parental voice role has been my coaching to managers and volunteers for many years.

(08:27) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Paul, that is absolutely brilliant and there are some things I want to highlight of what you said. Number one, you need to get back with people very quickly so that they know they are being heard. You don't want a lot of time from an angry person to go without touching base with them even to say, you know, we're working on it, and we'll get back with you. They need to know. Number two, by this strategy, you're allowing them to feel heard, which is 95% of the battle. And the third thing that you said that was right on the mark is that you are putting the answer in very logical terms and you're taking the emotion out of it and you're bringing it in to logical terms and also using experts to back up your point. I really appreciate that, Paul, and that what you're saying, that's why it's so effective.

(09:18) Paul K. Mengert: Lori, we're so pleased to have you with us today. We do have to take a quick break and hear one of our Community Leaders Series newsbreaks. And we'll be right back with Dr. Lori Baker-Schena.

(09:33) Speaker: And now it's time for your HOA Solutions Today newsbreak.

(09:38) Newsbreak: The Millennium Tower in San Francisco, infamous for its persistent sinking and leaning problems, is currently experiencing its most significant westward tilt to date, despite attempts to stabilize the building through a $100 million repair plan and freezing measures, these efforts have proven unsuccessful, causing difficulties for residents, and impacting the property's marketability. The tower's northwest corner, situated at Fremont and Mission Streets, has witnessed a staggering tilt of over 29in, with much of the additional slant occurring during excavation work undertaken to reinforce the tower. Although initial progress was observed when the North Side received support from six newly installed piles, recent rooftop-based monitoring data reveals that the tower is now tilting half an inch more towards the west compared to its pre support state on the North side, contrasting its apparent stability on the Mission side. Go to www.HOACommunityLeaders.com to read the full story.

(10:34) Paul K. Mengert: Ladies and gentlemen, we're back. I'm Paul K. Mengert and I’m here with Dr. Lori Baker-Schena, Dr. BS, discussing how to deal with difficult homeowners. Lori, I think we had a great segment discussing the background and some of the actions that people would take in kind of learning about the situation. Once you've learned about it, it's now time to take an action. Tell me a little bit about the action you would take. How would you suggest couching that and delivering that and hopefully kind of, putting things on a on a good path forward?

(11:12) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Well, the most important thing, of course, is try to bring down the emotional, the heightened emotional dialogue between you and the homeowner. So, you want to have them calm down. And that is done how we did to listen to them, let them speak, ask some questions, let them know that they're hurt, and naturally this will go down. You know what? The things you don't want to say is, I understand how you feel, because that's a trigger. They'll say, there's no way you would understand how I feel. So, you want to avoid that, but you want to let them know that they're heard. Then the next thing you want to do is really educate them on the role of whatever is upsetting them in terms of is it a law thing, is it in the governing documents? And you want to stay calm, and you want to stay factual. When people are upset, this is really important, Paul, when people are upset, they don't hear you. They do not hear you. When you're angry, you cannot hear the other person. So, once you calm them down, then you can give them what you believe are the answers. Not necessarily a solution, but the answers to what is going on.

(12:19) Paul K. Mengert: Lori, that's sage advice. I really, I think that is great guidance to our managers and community leaders. I once worked with a board president who became really frustrated with a community member, and a few days before Christmas, he sent back an email to the homeowner saying that he felt like the homeowner was the Grinch that was stealing Christmas. Just imagine how you can ever move on from that to be in a situation where that owner feels welcome and part of the community and maybe would be a volunteer. I just tell that example, you know, not to hopefully embarrass anybody that's listening to this, but as a leader, even when people, the non-leaders, may have the ability to be disrespectful. But regardless of that, the leaders have to be respectful. And frankly, if you're going to be an effective leader, you need to handle every situation in a way, even the people you're working, you know, maybe contrary to what they believe, you may need to be working shoulder to shoulder with them in the future. So, we really have to remain on good terms with everybody. I was in Washington a couple of weeks ago, Lori, and I met with a fairly senior Congressman about an issue, and he told me something that I thought was really important, and it came up in the subject of he was working across the aisle with somebody, and he told me that the person the other Senator had contributed to the campaign of the person that was running against him. And I asked him, I said, well, how can you ever work with him in the future? And he said, well, I've learned in Washington that you have to take people who are your adversaries less serious than people who are your colleagues and supporters, because those who are against you will come and go, and maybe the next time they'll be for you. But once you make them your enemy, then you can really never work with them again. So even when they do something you disagree with, you kind of have to say, well, I disagree with you on that, but I agree with you on a lot of other things and on the things, we agree on, let's move forward. And I delve into that to say to our community leaders keep in mind that, while I don't want you to use a parental voice, you need to be the adult in the room. And when other people are having meltdowns, you need to say, well, Lori would say, I would she advise is again saying, I understand how you how you feel. One of the things that originally came from Zig Ziglar, if anybody remembers that he had this great line that he said, if I were you, I'm sure I would feel the same way you feel. And it's hard for that to be wrong, because if I were you, I would be you. I just thought, you know, that Zig Ziglar comment has stuck with me for many years. And I've really, Lori, you know this because we've discussed this in other context. I have really, in my professional career, tried to make a habit of trying to understand how the other people feel. And I think when you can accomplish that doesn't mean you have to agree with it. But when you can understand how they feel, it really does help you be a better leader, a stronger leader, and a more effective leader.

(15:47) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Absolutely. And I love Paul, love, I’m going to steal that being the adult in the room. Because when someone's yelling at you, human nature is, you just want to yell right back, and you cannot. As a community manager, as a volunteer leader, your role is to take the high road and never sink down to their level. It will only escalate, and your job is to de-escalate. And that can only happen when you keep your calm. You remain the adult and then you are able to control the whole narrative. But again, if you get angry, then all of your common sense has the possibility of going out the window too. So, it's all about self-control. It's about intentionality. And of course, and Paul, this is really important, not taking anything personally. You are a leader. You're a volunteer leader. That's part of the job. You're a manager. It happens. It could be anybody. So not taking these things personally is crucial in being successful.

(16:49) Paul K. Mengert: Lori, great advice. Great advice. Thank you. We have another AMG Community Leaders Series newsbreak.

(16:59) Speaker: And here's another HOA Solutions Today newsbreak.

(17:03) Newsbreak: Due to the risk of wildfires and other factors, insurers are increasingly denying coverage to HOA's in California, leaving them with no choice but to turn to the state's last resort insurance option. The Fair Plan, which is the fair access to insurance requirements, is the last resorts coverage for homes in wildfire prone areas, has seen almost doubled participation in the last five years. The President at the Fair Plan stressed that the plan was designed institute as a life raft intended to ferry folks to the admitted market. It was not designed to be a cruise ship. In an effort to address this issue, a State Assembly member and a state insurance representative recently met with a group of 30 HOA's to discuss potential solutions and establish better lines of communication. However, it seems that finding an effective solution may take some time. Let us know your thoughts by leaving a comment at HOACommunityLeaders.com.

(17:57) Paul K. Mengert: Welcome back, folks. I'm Paul K. Mengert. I'm here today discussing dealing with difficult homeowners with Lori Baker-Schena. Lori, thank you for being here and helping us with this. As we come to our third kind of segment of today's podcast, I really want to discuss what do you do after you've listened, you've heard, you've understood, you've proposed solutions, you've hopefully implemented solutions. What's next?

(18:27) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Well, you want to always be the leader that is open to suggestions, open to community input and open to feedback. And Paul, you taught me this. It's always good to find out, you know, first of all, not to get too defeated if you have this situation because the majority of homeowners are very, very happy being in a, you know, managed community. You know, from a personal standpoint, don't let this discourage you. Don't let this get you down. Secondly, I think that being proactive in your communication with either, you know, as managers, proactive with your boards or homeowners or even the boards to show them what all the good that you're doing and the things that are happening you so you're not only talking to them when they're upset, but actually talking to them when things are good. Also helps set the stage for relationship building, which is truly the key. So, I believe that the two things that are successful here are relationship building with your boards and homeowners and also, you know, education. Again, why are we doing why is it important? You know, and Paul, you taught me, you've taught me so much. But when you have someone who's upset because they can't do anything, let's say they have they want to, you know, do something at their house. And the governing documents say they can't. You need to show them that when you're in a community like this, we have to balance the needs of all of the residents. And when you educate and you tell them we have to balance the needs of everyone living here, it really, really helps in explaining that situation.

(19:59) Paul K. Mengert: Totally agreed. And I would just add that I do think one of the things that we've seen over the years that's also important as you kind of deal with wrapping up these situations, sometimes you just have to be willing to, after you've done what you can do to move on. Yes. And it's okay to say to somebody, you know, look, I'll be pleased to help you revisit this in the future. But as it stands now, it's, you know, X, Y, Z. It seems to me that the most successful community leaders do a good job at what they can do, but don't become kind of tied to what they can't solve. Lori, I think you know this, but many years ago AMG started doing an annual community satisfaction survey of our communities. And what we've found across the board is that the vast preponderance of homeowners are satisfied. And, you know, every community is a little different. So, I can't say that this is your community, but in general, what we find is we have 2 or 3% of the people that are generating maybe 50% of all the complaints. So, when you present the satisfaction survey to the board, we've put exactly, and we've included copies of what people submit so that the board members can see what's being submitted. But what we do is try to judge not by the number of issues that we've solved or not solved, but judge by the number of homeowners that we've been able to satisfy or not satisfy. And, you know, frankly, a very high percentage of the ones that we can't satisfy are seeking something beyond the scope of the association. I remember one where someone was upset about a train that passed in the middle of the night. It woke them up, and I'm sure it's a very valid and important concern, but it's beyond the scope of what the association was designed or put into place to do. So, I've really seen that when our community leaders read the satisfaction surveys, it gives them a lot of kind of increased knowledge of, you know, who are the people who are unhappy in the community. And that ought to be understood and we ought to understand why they're unhappy. And listen, I'm the first one to say, if we can make them happy, do it. And we started the community satisfaction survey largely because we felt like there are some people that are dissatisfied. And I learned this by going to annual meetings for years and years and years. And I saw that most of the complaints we got had we just known about them, we could have solved them pretty quickly. So, the idea of the community satisfaction survey was to ferret out the complaints that can be fixed and fix them rapidly and then isolate the ones that we can't fix so that we understand those. And I'm not saying we shouldn't be respectful about them, you know, we can join them in writing a letter to the railroad about not blowing the whistle or however that might work. But I certainly don't want to judge my community management team on whether they can solve problems that are beyond their scope. And, you know, sometimes boards have to make tough decisions where, you know, you have to decide between blue and red. The people who want blue are going to be unhappy if you choose red. And if you choose the red, the people that want blue are going to be unhappy. You know, we can understand those. And I think the vast preponderance of the people that we deal with, even when they want a decision to go another way, the vast preponderance of them will understand that. And, you know, we need to encourage them, look, let's not obsess over what we disagree on. Let's do like the Senator suggested and embrace what we do agree on so that we can work on that. And I also want to just add, and I know we're running out of time, but I also just want to add that my experience has been when you can frame these things very broadly, we really all agree at the end of the day, we all want a nice place to live. We all want property values to go up and we all want to live in happiness. The question is just how do we accomplish those things? But what we want is all the same. So, part of our role to the membership, I believe, is to frame things that even when you maybe didn't get your way on a particular issue, we're still working toward your broader goal, whether that be happiness or beautiful grounds or higher property values. I really have never found anyone that wanted lower property values or something less beautiful. We may just disagree on what beautiful looks like. And that's why Ford makes so many different color cars.

(24:43) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Absolutely. And just to wrap this up, Paul, I just believe that we need to focus on things that we can control and not worry about things that we can't. So that's really important that that was a good point. And finally, I like the idea and I think people should really think about it as serve. I love the, so smart to survey your homeowners and isolate the real issues and then celebrate the things that are going right. So, I think that's a great you can be proactive, a proactive leader. You're in business.

(25:13) Paul K. Mengert: So, we have our final newsbreak. Lori, thank you, as we go into the final newsbreak. And we'll be right back with Dr. Lori Baker-Schena.

(25:24) Speaker: And now our final HOA Solutions Today newsbreak.

(25:29) Newsbreak: In a heartwarming celebration residents of a condo complex in Louisville, Colorado, rejoiced as they mark the beginning of the rebuilding phase after approximately 1100 individuals were displaced by a devastating fire in December of 2021. The groundbreaking ceremony, a symbol of the progress achieved through the collaboration of the association, city officials, and community partners, held immense significance for the community. Overcoming the initial challenges of debris removal, the community obtained the necessary permits to commence construction, which is projected to take 12 to 15 months, coinciding with the expiration of most homeowners’ insurance coverage for alternative living expenses. As they gathered for the ceremony, attendees expressed heartfelt gratitude towards the resilient community members, dedicated individuals involved in the project, and the courageous firefighters who bravely responded on that day of the fire. Visit HOACommunityLeaders.com and leave a comment or read the full story. This news update is brought to you by Pond Lake Management. For more information or to get in touch, please visit their website at pondlakemanagement.com.

(26:37) Paul K. Mengert: We're back, everyone. And as we close out today's episode, I want to first of all, thank Dr. Lori Baker-Schena, for being with us and sharing her advice and guidance and kind of support for homeowners and association leaders and managers. So, Lori, thank you very much. And as I try to do at the end of each of our episodes, I'd like to give my three takeaways and then kind of ask you to comment on those or give your three takeaways. But for me, in dealing with a I don't want to call it difficult people, I just don't like the language that dealing with frustrated people. I believe the first thing you need to do is be willing to listen and ask questions to understand the scope of the problem. And the second thing you need to do is to research what the possible answers and solutions might be, and you need to do that promptly, but not too quickly. I don't suggest doing it in the same conversation. And the third thing you need to do is to frame what you can do as being a good thing for them and a good thing for the association, even if it's not exactly what they like. I'll explain particularly the third point just a little bit more. For many years we've worked with associations that have rules about satellite dishes and where you can put satellite dishes, maybe not as big an issue now as it was ten years ago, but we'd often get requests, and the cable or satellite company would just want to put the dish in the most convenient place. But rather than saying to the homeowner, no, you can't put it in the front yard, we found it to be a lot better to say, hey, homeowner, we really want to help protect your property values. And the real estate experts have suggested it would be better to put it in the backyard because that will help you accomplish raising the value of your house. And we know that's an objective for most people. They want to see the property values go up. So, we would explain it that way to them rather than just saying, no, you can't put it in the front yard. While you can't put it there, you can put it in the backyard or the side yard, and I understand that may cost a little bit more. But if you think about over the years, making your house worth even 1 or 2% more in value because the person who might propose to buy your house or your neighbor's house might be turned off by it being in the front yard. So just for a small thing, but we're really putting ourselves in the role of we're doing this to help you, not to say no to you. So those are my three takeaways then understand and frame things in a positive way. Lori, please chime in on this in the few minutes we have left.

(29:17) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Well, my three takeaways are, first of all, don't take anything personally. You know, this is your job and it's a job as your manager, as a manager or a community leader. Number two, stay calm and listen. Don't get reactive and don't raise the anger level. Keep calm. Be the adult in the room. And number three, be educational. Explain the why of why things are the way they are because people might not even understand there are governing documents or there are legal issues. So, when you stay calm, you stay unemotional, and you really get to the facts. I think that'll be very effective.

(29:53) Paul K. Mengert: Lori, just great. Great having you here. Thank you, everyone, for listening to our episode today and certainly double extra thanks to Dr. Lori Baker-Schena, for taking her time to speak with us about dealing with difficult homeowners. I'm Paul K. Mengert, your host for AMG Community Leaders Series 2023 Podcast Edition. To listen to other podcast episodes or access additional 2023 Community Leaders Series content, please visit HOACommunityLeaders.com. Lori, thank you.

(30:27) Dr. Lori Baker-Schena: Thank you, Paul.

(30:29) Speaker: Thanks for listening to 2023 AMG's Community Leaders Series Podcast Edition. To find more information on this episode, please visit HOACommunityLeaders.com. This podcast is a production of BG AD Group. All rights reserved. Producer. And Jason Jentera audio producer. All rights reserved.

• Be willing to listen and ask questions to understand the scope of the problem.

• Research what the possible answers and solutions might be, you need to do that promptly, but not too quickly.

• Frame what you can do as being a good thing for them and a good thing for the association, even if it's not exactly what they like.

Sf's Millennium Tower Now Tilting More Than Ever To The West After Early Recovery

The Millennium Tower in San Francisco, infamous for its persistent sinking and leaning problems, is currently experiencing its most significant westward tilt to date. Despite attempts to stabilize the building through a $100 million repair plan and "freezing" measures, these efforts have proven unsuccessful, causing difficulties for residents and impacting the property's marketability. The tower's northwest corner, situated at Fremont and Mission streets, has witnessed a staggering tilt of over 29 inches, with much of the additional slant occurring during excavation work undertaken to reinforce the tower. Although initial progress was observed when the north side received support from six newly installed piles, recent rooftop-based monitoring data reveals that the tower is now tilting half an inch more towards the west compared to its pre-support state on the north side, contrasting its apparent stability on the Mission side.

More Scrutiny Over HOA Insurance Issue

Due to the risk of wildfires and other factors, insurers are increasingly denying coverage to HOAs in California, leaving them with no choice but to turn to the state's "last resort" insurance option. The FAIR (Fair Access to Insurance Requirements) Plan, which offers "last resort" coverage for homes in wildfire-prone areas, has seen almost doubled participation in the last five years. “The plan was designed in statute as a life raft, intended to ferry folks back to the admitted market. It was not designed to be a cruise ship,” the President of the FAIR plan stressed. In an effort to address this issue, a State Assembly member and a state insurance representative recently met with a group of over 30 HOAs to discuss potential solutions and establish better lines of communication. However, it seems that finding effective solutions may take some time.

Residents Break Ground On Rebuilding Of Wildflower Condominiums Complex

In a heartwarming celebration, residents of a condo complex in Louisville, Colorado, rejoiced as they marked the beginning of the rebuilding phase after approximately 1,100 individuals were displaced by a devastating fire in December 2021. The groundbreaking ceremony, a symbol of progress achieved through the collaboration of the association, city officials, and community partners, held immense significance for the community. Overcoming the initial challenges of debris removal, the community obtained the necessary permits to commence construction, which is projected to take 12 to 15 months, coinciding with the expiration of most homeowners' insurance coverage for alternative living expenses. As they gathered for the ceremony, attendees expressed heartfelt gratitude towards the resilient community members, dedicated individuals involved in the project, and the courageous firefighters who bravely responded on the day of the fire.